Leah:
Welcome to the CGA Career Podcast. Today, I am looking forward to interviewing Fleur Katsmartin. Fleur completed her schooling at Caulfield Grammar in 2001 before going on to study Arts Law with Honours at Monash University.

She commenced her career as a lawyer with the Australian Government Solicitor, where she worked for almost six years before spending some time in a commercial law firm and then moving into healthcare. Fleur spent eight years with Healthdirect Australia before moving to the Royal Melbourne Hospital, where she is currently in the role of Chief Legal Officer and Corporate Secretary. Fleur’s areas of expertise include health tech, ehealth, government and commercial tendering, procurement and contracting, digital and IT law, privacy and compliance, corporate governance, and corporate advisory. In 2020, she was a finalist for the General Counsel of the Year at the Australian Law Awards, and this year she was a finalist for the Healthcare Lawyer of the Year at the Corporate Counsel Awards. Welcome to the podcast, Fleur.

Fleur Katsmartin:
Thanks very much, Leah.

Leah:
Fleur, I like to start at the beginning. So I understand you completed your schooling in 2001 and then went on to study Arts Law at Monash. Did you always have a plan to pursue a legal career, or did it evolve over time?

Fleur:
To be honest, no. I didn’t. I remember doing legal studies in Year 12 at Caulfield and being pretty underwhelmed, to be honest. And I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. So, you know, I remember looking through, back then, it was a hard book—I’m sure it’s all digital now—but a hard book in terms of, you know, where you could go and what you could study, and it had a whole list of things. And I actually didn’t think I’d get the marks to be able to get into Arts Law in the first instance. So, you know, I was very pleased to be able to do that, but wasn’t necessarily set on being a lawyer.

Leah:
So you graduated from Monash and then I believe did a graduate program at the Australian Government Solicitor. I know when I did those programs, they were very competitive, and they still are. Can you describe some of the steps that you remember having to undertake?

Fleur:
It was an interesting one because during my law degree, I did a couple of clerkships, and there’s still as much pressure now as there was then that, you know, you really feel like you need to do these clerkships with these law firms. And, you know, I was very fortunate to get to do two. But it’s very competitive, and I guess you don’t realize, you know, there are lots of other opportunities and things you could be doing. One of the clerkships I completed, the partner I was reporting to ultimately said to me, she never thought I would be a good lawyer because my hair was too big and my laugh was too loud. And I’m gonna say, as a lowly law student, that really impacted me. And it really changed me in terms of, you know, being myself.

And so when I went for the role at AGS, you know, I was probably much more humble and meek in terms of my approach. But, you know, I finished law school and after the painful feedback from this partner, you know, I lost a lot of confidence in maybe being able to apply for work, and was applying at all these law firms and getting interviews, but it’s so competitive, and you kind of don’t know what else there is out there. I had some really great guidance from a mentor of mine looking at, you know, government departments and perhaps public service would be something, because they all do amazing grad programs. And I say now to the junior lawyers that I’ve mentored, that I’m in contact with, you know, really, it’s about getting training. And it really doesn’t matter where, but getting some sort of training and an organization to invest in you is really important, I think, and it kinda sets that foundation for you.

So by that point, I was applying everywhere to try and get some work with not much confidence, which was pretty tough. And I had friends always thinking that I would go work in New York or Paris. And then the opportunity happened in Canberra with the Australian Government Solicitor, and I went to Canberra and, you know, it was a really amazing experience. You know, you’re on the ground and AGS does predominantly federal legal work. And the grad program was excellent because you ran through a bunch of different areas to kind of determine what you like and what you don’t like.

But, you know, given I wasn’t ever really set on being a lawyer and kind of made it through my degree and had this feedback and, you know, was concerned about being myself because I’m quite a loud person, and then into the workplace that within a very short period of time, you kind of realize you spend so much time at work, you need to be yourself, and you need to be able to work in an environment where you can embrace being yourself. Otherwise, it takes a hell of a lot of energy to not be yourself while working.

So I was very fortunate to be in a workforce and a place where they did embrace who I was, perhaps looked at the skills I had, not for the laugh or my hair. So, you know, it is really competitive. And it’s tough. And I think it’s very hard to not get discouraged as law students or even as junior lawyers, you know, where can you go? What can you do? But the experience and making the decision to move to Canberra, which is somewhere I thought I’d never live, was great. You know, I kind of took the opportunity, and it really paid off.

Leah:
That’s great. And, I mean, one of the benefits is that opportunity to rotate across different departments in a graduate program so you get a taste of different areas of law before you make a choice. It reminds me of when I worked in accounting because I worked in a big four firm, and I used to straighten my hair every day because I didn’t feel I looked professional with curly hair.

Fleur:
Crazy, though. But it’s, you know, it is. It’s that real mindset. And I think, you know, I often think of that partner, and I think now I’m thankful for that. Because while it was really, you know, painful, really smashed my confidence, ultimately, what it meant is that, you know, as I had more experience, more time working, to me, it was really the come-to-Jesus moment of, you know, I will be who I am. And if you want me to work for you, I will. But if you don’t, well then, that’s not my loss.

Leah:
That’s right. And look, thank goodness. I think, you know, firms are a little more diverse these days, so they don’t all look like clones. So you were at AGS for almost six years in Canberra. Can you give us an idea of how you would have been spending your time day to day as a junior lawyer in those first few years?

Fleur:
Sure. So, really, you know, I think and I say this to the juniors I work with now. You know, your bread and butter is developing those skills. While you might not understand the complexities of some of the legal matters, your bread and butter is developing those skills to assist those that do. So, you know, in terms of research, attention to detail, being able to review information, documents, you know, putting together memos on discrete areas of law, spending time consulting with seniors or supporting senior lawyers in the tasks that they do.

So really, you know, I think the benefit of those graduate rounds or being a junior lawyer in that sort of environment is that you’re like a sponge. All you’re doing constantly is learning, and developing your own skill set. So, you know, as I said, whether it’s fact-finding or being part of a larger project where you’re, you know, providing input, the tasks would still be quite varied. But, you know, everything is quite closely supervised because you’re still learning. And, you know, part of this is also learning how to work and how to manage up and how to deal with different senior lawyers, who, you know, have their own personalities or their own different styles and how you can adjust to better support them.

Leah:
So in terms of client contact, you know, how much people interaction would you have had in those early years versus researching, writing, that type of work?

Fleur:
So I think it really depends on the organization you’re at. I know AGS were very supportive and, you know, as part of my graduate program, I was able to do a secondment. At the time, they were called the Australian Customs Service—it’s now Border Protection or whatever they’re called. So, you know, I was placed in a government department to work with their legal team, which was excellent. And I think that really ignited my passion for being in-house because I’ve always said I like working better with people than I do with lawyers.

But ultimately, you know, those sorts of common experiences, which happen much more often as a junior than they do potentially as you get more and more experience, you get really the opportunity to get into a workplace and see what it’s like to be on the ground. Because I think as lawyers, you know, especially when we work at a firm, it’s quite limited in scope. You get a problem, you provide a solution in the form of advice or whatever it is, and then that’s it. You don’t really get to see what then happens as you would when you’re on the ground.

Leah:
Can you take us through your career journey after you left AGS?

Fleur:
Sure. So I was at AGS, as you highlighted, for six years. I spent a couple of years in Canberra and then came back to the Melbourne office and was quite keen at some point. I’d known that I’d want to work in-house. At that point, I’d succumbed to the fact that I was going to be a lawyer longer than I’d anticipated, but that I really wanted to work in-house and on the ground.

And I thought, you know, I’d spent enough time with AGS. My concern was that given they focus on government work, I would be pigeonholed and wouldn’t be able to find a role in-house because they would consider I only have government experience. So at that point, I started looking around at in-house roles, and then the opportunity arose to jump ship to Leonard Rogers, which is probably mid-tier now, but more mid to high tier back then, and assist with some of the government work they were doing. So it was kind of the foot in the door into private practice, which I never thought I would do.

I was never keen to go again into private practice. But in my mind, it was like a five-year plan. I’d go into private practice, get some stripes, and then be able to move in-house. Sometimes things happen faster than you expect. So I started at Landers and within a few months flew up to Sydney, meeting with the partner I was working with and Healthdirect. They were very small at that point, about 25 employees, and they were in a growth phase.

They really wanted someone on secondment to come and assist their general counsel to do a lot of the work they were doing. And lo and behold, there I was. So I was then seconded to Healthdirect and very quickly became aware that I fell in love with the organization. This was a real experience into the health tech space. I really believed in what they were doing—very value-driven organization, which sits very well with me.

So I was on secondment there full-time for about six months and part-time for about three months after that, and ultimately jumped ship to Healthdirect from there. And then, as we flagged, I was at Healthdirect for quite some time, ultimately stepping into the general counsel role once the general counsel left the organization. I was there when they were delivering a lot of the key services on a national basis for COVID. They were running the National Coronavirus Helpline and a lot of the health video call platform and other systems that the government was funding to assist health during COVID, which was amazing but also very stressful, I’d say.

So originally from Melbourne, during COVID, I decided that with my family up there, we wanted to move back, and I started looking for work. I was so interested in the health space and thought that was where I wanted to be. The opportunity at Royal Melbourne Hospital arose, which was amazing. But, you know, joining a public hospital during COVID was also extremely challenging, I’d say. But again, this is a very value-driven organization, which means that I get to do what I love in an environment that I love. And I think that’s really important. So I’m very fortunate. I think my path has turned out in a way I probably couldn’t have imagined.

Leah:
I’m keen to talk to you a bit more about, you know, what an average week looks like for you now and the type of work you do. But before we do, you know, I know you didn’t spend a lot of time in the legal profession, but, you know, a lot of young lawyers stay in the legal profession for maybe four to seven years and then often move in-house. What would you say are the key differences and the key considerations before doing so?

Fleur:
Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the key ones normally is billable hours. I think some people and I, you know, I like managing my time. But I also appreciate not having to bill for it. So, you know, I think that’s one of the key drivers. I know in my mind, one of the big differences as well, like I was flagging before, is, you know, you’re either involved in the business and you get to see everything from start to end, or you’re brought in as an advisor where you look at a discrete matter or a discrete item and highlight the risks and then leave it for the business to take and do what they will with it.

So, you know, I think there are some people that really like being in that legal environment in a law firm where you can kind of come and develop your skills in that space. But, you know, ultimately, I think in-house there’s the ability for more strategic consideration across different areas of the business as well, and I guess a greater exposure to those sorts of things.

Leah:
And just to give us an idea, at the Royal Melbourne, what would be the size of the legal team there?

Fleur:
So at the moment, we’ve got eight. Very, very fortunate to have grown. When I started, it was just myself, which, you know, for an organization that has roughly 10,000 employees across a number of sites, I couldn’t really understand why there weren’t a lot of lawyers, but I’m very lucky to have the support of the executive board to grow the team. So I have a really excellent team. And in terms of what we cover, I think people think, oh, you work in the hospital, and you’re probably dealing mainly with medical issues and legal issues.

That is one component and obviously a large one. But, you know, we are a business. And developed. And, you know, being a public health organization, there is a lot of governance and compliance, you know, IT issues, you know, property and construction. There’s constantly redevelopment in these areas of the hospital that are upgraded. So, you know, it is an extremely varied amount of work. I often say no two days are the same. And that’s what well, I always feel like I’m learning something new. And I think, you know, part of being in-house is that you don’t necessarily need to know the answers to everything, but you get to find them out.

Leah:
And I imagine that you would also still work with legal firms on more complex matters that require sort of really intense expertise in one particular area. Would that be right?

Fleur:
Yeah. A hundred percent. So where there’s something really specialized, you know, and as I said, I kind of think of myself as a jack of all trades, master of none. Where we need something really specialized, we do. And that’s the value of having those external legal providers that I can go to with a really difficult or complex problem for them to provide some solutions that we can then take into the business and look to implement.

Leah:
Sounds like you sort of fell into healthcare through just a secondment opportunity. Is it important for you to work as a lawyer in an organization that has some meaning and some purpose?

Fleur:
Definitely. Definitely. I think that’s my reason for getting up and coming here in the mornings. I often say to people, I feel like the values of the RMH, they’re what I teach my children. We’ve got staff here. We’re told to lead with kindness and put people first. And I think there’s no reason why as a lawyer, these can’t be our values in terms of the services we provide.

But ultimately, as lawyers, we’re a customer service. You want to be able to provide service if people come back to you and continue to use your services, but if you’re not doing them aligned with the rest of the organization, there’s a real disconnect. So having now had a few steps to get here professionally, I definitely feel that I don’t think I could work in an organization where I don’t believe in what we’re doing.

Leah:
I guess it allows you to feel like you’ve got purpose getting up every morning.

Fleur:
Yes. Definitely.

Leah:
What would you say are the biggest challenges for lawyers, not necessarily just you, but in your team, sort of the day-to-day challenges that come up at work?

Fleur:
Yeah. Look. And I don’t think these are uncommon across the sector, whether it’s in-house or at law firms. You know? Resourcing, funding, burnout. I think this is becoming a more and more important discussion that, you know, lawyers as with every profession, and especially post-COVID. Mental health and well-being are critical. We have a certain type of personality, which makes us perfectionists, and we all work, you know, 24/7 and all those wonderful things. But we need to practice self-care. Because at times, you know, it can be a thankless job. Where at the back end, you don’t necessarily see us and we make things happen. But you often hear that, you know, oh, it’s a problem. Go to legal. Or it’s a problem because of legal. But I think ensuring that we invest enough in our people to make sure they’re looked after becomes really important.

And as I said, I don’t think it’s unique to just my team or my sector. I think it’s a really important discussion we need to keep having for any lawyers. And I think especially as junior lawyers going into the profession, or perhaps students going into study, there’s a set expectation that you work around the clock, and you’re always there, and you’re always on call. And burnout is real. And I think back to the people I studied with at Monash, and a lot have left the legal profession because it’s tough. You can get through it, but I think ensuring that you look after yourself and make sure you do things to fill your cup aside from working becomes much more important.

Leah:
I know I worked in human resources within one of the commercial law firms a long time ago, but we had a kitchen at the firm. And the lawyers, you know, most a lot of them had dinner there every night. So often they might go to the gym at five o’clock, come back, and then work till eight, have dinner, then get a taxi home, I guess, after a little bit more work. Do you think working in government, there was, I guess, a better work-life balance as a younger lawyer?

Fleur:
Yes. To an extent, I think it’s a bit of a different environment. I think the private sector and I do think to an extent it’s changing very slowly, but there is that real expectation. I think the good thing is no one hides it from you. I remember being, you know, going to those law fairs as a law student, and a junior lawyer presenting there were like, you know, we’re going back to work. We’re gonna be here till midnight. So, you know, it’s not like someone’s hiding it and then you end up in a law firm and you’re like, oh my gosh, what is this? But I think in government, there is that balance, and perhaps a little bit of a different expectation. Having said that, the work can be as stressful, but also as rewarding. Which is why I do say to people when they’re not sure about where to go, it is about building your toolkit. And you might actually surprise yourself in terms of going down a path you hadn’t envisaged to kind of get you somewhere else.

Leah:
If a law student was listening to this podcast, what advice might you have for them if they want to get ahead and stand out from the crowd?

Fleur:
It’s probably a little bit different now to when I was—it makes me feel really old—when I was in that position. LinkedIn, there are all these platforms. There’s almost too much information, but there’s the ability to reach out and connect with people in a way that we never could at that time. You kind of have to, you know, we were emailing back then, thank goodness, not writing letters. But think about areas that you’re interested in. Reach out to people working in those areas.

I often get—I’m probably gonna get them from saying this—but I often get cold knocks on my LinkedIn door from students or lawyers wanting to have a chat, and I’m always happy to. And I think you’d be surprised by how many people in certain positions are more than happy to have that initial chat to provide some wisdom or guidance, and to share some learnings. So take those opportunities, try and reach out, and don’t be discouraged. I think that’s how it’s very competitive. When you’re looking down one path, there are lots of different paths that you may be able to go down. So they’re probably the two bits of advice I’d share.

Leah:
Great advice. And I think you can learn so much even from ten minutes of someone’s time. And I agree. I think most people are happy to help if you are respectful of their time. You know, I wouldn’t be asking people to go out for lunch, but ten, fifteen minutes on a Zoom call, you know, I think most people would be willing to give up that time to help someone.

Fleur:
Yes. Great.

Leah:
Well, you’ve done really well, Fleur, for someone who has a loud voice and that crazy curly hair.

Fleur:
Thank you, Leah. Thank you.

Leah:
Congratulations on your recent, well, being nominated and being a finalist for those recent awards as well. Can you just tell us a little bit about that before we finish up?

Fleur:
Yeah. Sure. Thank you. And it’s always a bit surprising when you get nominated for those sorts of accolades. The GC nomination was during my time at Healthdirect, and in the midst of all the work we were doing for COVID. So, you know, I was really chuffed, to be honest. And then in terms of the Healthcare Lawyer nomination during my time here at RMH, so very pleased to be part of a really exceptional group that were nominated for that award.

Leah:
Well, thank you very much for taking time out to share your advice and wisdom today. Wish you all the best for the rest of your career, and we hope to chat with you again soon.

Fleur:
Awesome. Thanks for having me, Leah.

Leah:
Thanks, Fleur.

Leah:
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